SHOCK: LARGEST RETAILER IN HISTORY SIDES WITH CUSTOMERS

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Well what do you know, the market driven economy is green and more capable than all the government programs to make the suppliers green.

JudgeBob-

The market is indeed a powerful teacher.

As a pro-union "moo-baah" as you call me, I'd like to ask how do you enjoy your two-day weekend? How about not working 10-12 hours days? How about having clearly marked (and unlocked!) fire exits in your work place? The list can go on.
People tend to forget what was a working life like in a "free-trade" anti-union society just a century or so ago, and is still in existence all over the world where unions do not exist and corporations enjoy the benefits of the "free-trade" economic zones etc.
You call yourself THE Historian and yet post after post your spill out the most historically ignorant ideas, which makes me seriously doubt that you are actually a historian by education, unless of course reading corporate sponsored articles and official government-approved versions of events qualify for education nowadays.

Schweik-

You and I are in complete agreement relative to the reasons why unionism was a vitally necessary movement in American history. There is no question about the quality contributions of unions to the general welfare of this nation for 50-75 years.

Than the wheels came off and unions became the bastions of self-serving, greedy union bosses who bought politicians and pursued an agenda that became injurious to American society. You might not want to admit to that but it is clearly part of the historical record.

So insults aside let's admit that unions hate Wal-Mart because they cannot break that company. Wal-Mart NEVER is hurting for either willing employees or enthusiastic customers. When Wal-Mart becomes a negative force it will be driven out of the market place. Before that, unions might as well go on the attack in other arenas since they are not going to break Wal-Mart. The public is not and will not buy this part of the union agenda.

Untrue.

For a green solution here, you need to encourage 100% responsibility for disposal of packaging upon the packager. This is what they did in Germany where they ran out of landfill space. It was a government mandate and increased efficiency.

A little education for you "free market" religious nuts:
All economies are market driven one way or another. The issue is management. Either you have top down management or distributed decision making. Obviously the later is more effective as it focuses decision making to where the most relevant information is available. 100% state management is too much work for even the most brilliant minds to handle. However all markets have structure and the proven most effective means of this is a third party free of a potential conflict of interest.

Walmart has an incredible conflict of interest in managing the supply systems that feed its stores. While reducing packaging is definitely a plus one must wonder why it wasn't done earlier. Perhaps because "green" as JudgeBob said wasn't in Walmart's interest? Meanwhile Walmart has had enormous pressure on trucking nationwide... in a race to the bottom. Isn't that what is happening everywhere else in the world too? A race to the bottom? Wow. What progress.

Heneusa-

Thanks for your view. Lighten up on the insults, they serve no purpose.

Of course a Euro country would rely on government as the answer, it is after all socialist oriented.

You treat the Wal-Mart move to reduce packaging as bad news because it is market driven rather than government mandated. In the end, socialism becomes, as history shows, a "you pretend to work, we pretend to pay" system that developes dependence on government "masters" who have all the right answers and know better than everyone else. Motivation to produce is lost and society spirals into a level of subsistance and mediocrity. That might be what you seek but I have to say I am not interested.

The market in this instance is a far more powerful force than government mandates. If that were not the case why has not government mandated this change long ago? The creativity and rapid change that is often (not always) driven by the market place have built this economy into the most powerful in history and the most powerful on the planet. No government mandated country comes close.

None of this is to say that a pure market driven society is ideal. It is not. Some regulation is required as is some degree of government mandate. There is a mix in there that is ideal and this country is more often closer to the correct mix than is Europe.

[this is good]
I think you need to read with a little more nuance. Here's a deal: I also would like to tone down the insults, but I'll need some help from you. If you agree to read with the intention to comprehend, I'll be more pleasant.

Big changes are only made by business when the profit motive in favor of the change is large enough. That was the illustration made for the Walmart example. Germany's solution on the other hand is good for their national economy, not just one company. Have you seen their rates of material reclamation? Quite a boon for national security. The benefits of the decision are actually wide ranging well beyond the interests of any individual player within the market. And how again is establishing these rules for the market a problem? What better solution would have been established?

Second, my issue with Walmart's "green" effort is that it was inevitable anyway and thus not worthy of praise. This only happened now because the business is under pressure due to its dependence upon wide spread distribution. Its a minor increase in efficiency when the issues facing them will require much more than that. I still ask - why wasn't this done earlier if there is such a benefit to it? The answer is obvious. This is reactive decision making not proactive. And it is a weaknesses of market based decision making. I like how markets work too, but they aren't magical nor a panacea for all of our economy.

Furthermore for someone such as yourself - a "free" market moollah - I am surprised you'd applaud this. What was described in the article is not what qualifies as a process with distributed decision making - the essence of the mythical "free" market, and what socialism purportedly lacks. The way WalMart worked this out is very similar to how state run businesses work. It was a management decision within one entity influenced by another more authoritative entity who happens to have the most to gain since they own the distribution chain as well as the store.

An actual market driven process would have multiple producers, packagers, distributers, and stores each with different strategies competing and cooperating with one another depending upon their needs. This situation with Walmart is quite the opposite sharing many of the the weaknesses of socialism to me. How about you?

Henesua-

"...intention to comprehend...", sorry but like most people I am just too stupid to fully grasp your "nuance". Thanks for being so... condesending? By the way is a free market moollah and a free market religious nut the same or are there nuanced differences?

The business is under pressure at the point of sale: if costs go up, prices go up, customers go elsewhere. Thus the business does what it can, where it can to stay competitive.

I still ask: why is the private sector beating government mandate to this solution if it is so proactive? Answer: government is even more reactive than the private sector which is, by nature, reactive. That is why the market driven entity is leading the way while government trails along directionless.

Finally, don't tell Costco, K-Mart, Kohl's and the whole host of others out there in the marketplace that Wal-Mart has no competition. It might cause them to wonder why they go to work everyday. In my view, the competition is what keeps each of them on track, alert and non-socialist.

HI-

Thanks for the visit.

Historian, I'll try to step back out of the gutter to join you on the high ground, only because I am ashamed for not taking that stance from the beginning. I used to chastise others on Vox for the same thing and am somewhat shriven for sinking into the same mud all bloggers seem to eventually drown in.

However, that you categorize my argument in the "socialist" camp is highly irritating and shows no good faith on your part to even try to read my comments. It does not take much nuance or hell not even much effort for those that care to see outside of this politicized dialectic. It isn't just about "communism" versus freemarket. I can see it and I'm - as you can probably tell by the quality of my writing - about as intelligent as the majority of the other wannabe's on Vox - which is as solid an example of damning with faint praise as one can find. So come on.. if you don't want condescension, step it up a little, especially with that academic-ish title of yours.

Businesses like Walmart who have a history of monopoly and anti-competitive practices certainly do not deserve kudo's as champions of the "free" market. At this point I'm just going to leave it at that - as you seem quite averse to seeing the similarity between the way WalMart handled the business above and the way state owned companies in Russia managed goods distribution. They were looking to run more efficiently also by the way.

Furthermore to lump German economic policy with that of Europe as vaguely socialist does not hold much water either.

Henesua-

Obviously, academic-ish I am not. But I do confess to a life long love of history. Reading history and biography is a favorite activity.

I agree that Wal-Mart is huge. Let's face it they are the largest retail company in history and currently the largest retail company on the planet. So competing with them is not easy but they are also not a monopoly. Ultimately, as history repeatedly records, they will be knocked off their pedestal but for the time being they have an outsized impact on the American economy.

Going forward it appears we will disagree as to the fundamental value of a free market economy but that is OK. We shall all see where it leads.

Alright fine, but I think you still aren't seeing what ticked me off in the first place. I agree about the value of a "free" market, but do not agree that there is only an either/or situation. I thought I made it clear in comment one about what advantages I see a free market having.

Anyhow.. maybe next time.

Henesua-

Understood. Let's make sure there is a next time and thanks.

One more little contribution. Technology has been available for at least 5 years and more likely 10 to recycle all garbage into usable product. A giant article was done on this technology in Time/Life magazine where it was being used recycle turkey slaughter house byproduct. Its already employed on many cruise ships. There is no excuse for filling landfills with perfectly good reusable product except that the government either operates or subsidizes the landfill operations.

Further, if the energy businesses were allowed to build nuclear power plants we could reduce the carbon footprint (which I am not worried about) to very small numbers. Further, if the government weren't addicted to oil revenue we could have been operating our cars on HHO gas by splitting water molecules on the fly since that technology has been around since the late 70's.

JudgeBob-

There are so many good tracks we could and should pursue but we wait until we are on the brink. That is the nature of a democracy.

JudgeBob-
I'd rather not hijack this thread but if you'd like to discuss this recycling technology further I would not mind. Send me a note. I however strongly disagree that a technology to recycle any and all waste at 100% efficiency exists, but I am curious if you were referring to biodegradable materials for which I can not understand why material recycling would even be a concern, but rather processing into biomass would be the interest. Anyway from my significant experience in construction and development, a private industry which contributes a major proportion of the waste diverted to landfills in this country, I can assure you that it is neither government nor the failure to adopt a particular recycling technology that is contributing to this problem - but a constant push for expediency - which in my opinion is also why so much development is unattractive and one dimensional but that is a serious digression I'd rather not get into now.
Its hard to make a working system restructure. Government, business, and lawyers make these changes near impossible. Oil has been a legal form of graft for government for almost century. It is also moving on the information traffic starting in 1812 with the war on our Southern border when the first telephone tax was instituted. Now they're looking for ways to tax the internet.

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